Overview
In this episode of The DeBrief, we are joined by the amazing Tash Rebuck to disucss how sales and marketing can actually work together and are the secret to growth!
Highlights:
1:12- Meet Tash Rebuck
3:13- What is a commercial team? And why you should care
6:37- How Tash works with clients?
8:50- The big sales fear
10:21- Why founders need to understand sales
11:45- Tash’s background in acting and comedy and wearing the sales hat
13:18- Is your discomfort worth it?
17:08- Who Tash works with
Sam Sayer 0:05
Hey, Tash, how you doing?
Tash Rebuck 0:07
Hey, Sam, I’m good. Thanks. How are you?
Sam Sayer 0:09
All good thanks. All good. I tend to do these on a Friday. It’s normally a kind of like end a week thing. It’s kind of, yeah, there’s a there’s a buzz, buzz for the week gone by and the weekend ahead.
Tash Rebuck 0:20
Absolutely and the sun is peeking out, so you can’t ask for more.
Sam Sayer 0:23
This is what we need, what we need. So a lot of these conversations so far I’ve been running the debrief has been around marketing, but without marketing, there’s no sales. Without sales, there’s no business. And I think everyone knows the need to market. Of course, you know, you know, without regular leads and flow of work, there is no business, right? But I think the sales angle of it, certainly, from my mind, has, sales has felt like a bit of a dirty word. But also, let’s talk about the relationship between sales and marketing and the differences and from our conversations to this point, I cannot wait to talk about this. So first off, Tash, introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you? And why?
Tash Rebuck 1:12
Absolutely, so, gosh, why is a big one. But I am Tash Rebuck. I am a sales coach, advisor, consultant, trainer, basically, whatever my clients need, as long as it’s to do with sales. I’m in I am absolutely one of those weirdos that loves sales. And I mean, I love every part of it. I love doing a bit of cold calling, I love pitching. I love a hard negotiation. So that’s always been my my ethos is find the joy in something that most people don’t like and find a bit freaky or scary, and suddenly the hardest part of your business as a founder becomes something that you find a lot of joy in. And my consultancy, I started it just almost two years ago. Now coming up to my almost two year anniversary. And yeah, it’s just been fantastic, because my real ethos is, you know, change the way people feel about sales, make founders fall in love with it. If that’s not too bold of a claim, yeah, and yeah, it’s definitely a case of an education as well, which I suppose I’m glad that we get to talk about the difference between marketing and sales, because that’s probably the first thing I have to speak about with every single client that I work with.
Sam Sayer 2:35
Sure, absolutely, I think, you know, it’s got to be that harmony, right? And I’m very much. I built my business on referrals, and I kind of started small as a freelancer. Kind of grew from there. I didn’t even really do any marketing early days. I certainly had no sales process. And I worked with a coach a few years ago. Like, yeah, of course. What’s your sales process? Like, what? I get an inquiry, and we either go ahead or we don’t. He’s like, no, no. I was like, so look, you know, we’re not teaching people suck eggs here. I’m sure people know what. I hope people know what sales process is. But let’s talk about why it’s so important that it works so well. You know, together with marketing.
Tash Rebuck 3:13
Absolutely. So one thing I’ve always done in my past when I’ve been a head of sales or in a leadership position, is actually bringing together sales, marketing and account management. Because when you put them all together and you get them working really, really well, it becomes your commercial team. So I always end up being like a head of commercial rather than just a head of sales. And it’s not because I’m a marketing expert. I’m absolutely not. I’m a Sales expert. But they’re, they’re an ecosystem. Marketing brings in the leads that sales then convert into deals. Sales brings the relationships with the clients that then become amazing case studies and promoters of the service that you’re providing. And it becomes this circle that really support each other. And sometimes it can feel like marketing and sales are in a battle with each other. But instead of seeing them as a competition, you should really see it as right. We have different functions. One of us shouts a big message to the whole world, one of us speaks very closely with an individual one to one, but ultimately, we’re working towards the same goal, which is, let’s make more revenue, let’s grow the company, and let’s make a success out of this business.
Sam Sayer 4:35
Absolutely, absolutely. I think, yeah, we always hear these like battles between sales and marketing, because we often speak, you know, our clients, we often speak to my speak to a marketing team, you know, or sales have rejected this. It can be too hard to sell sort of thing. It’s like, hang on, like, aren’t we all singing off the same hymn sheet? You know, exactly. Why is it a challenge? I think, and I get it can be a challenge. Sometimes it’s not communicating. I think it’s the communication between all three. And it’s interesting thst you say like the commercial team, because I think it’s also the communications team, right?
Tash Rebuck 5:04
Yeah, absolutely. Because if you don’t have the same tone of voice and you don’t have the same messaging that you’re putting out there, people are going to be confused. Your clients are going to be confused. And if there’s one thing that stops people from wanting to spend their money is being confused about what they’re buying and so yeah, clarity on your comms. Hands down, the most important thing I often like to check with my marketing team. Okay, I’m going to send these emails out. I don’t need you to tell me what you think about the calls to action. But am I using the right tone of voice here? Am I hitting the right tones that you think are along our brand guidelines?
Sam Sayer 5:45
Sure. I guess it’s got to kind of be like that as well, right? Because actually, if, if the sales teams are already doing a load of things, we can’t just flip it overnight. But also, if things need to change, how does it work in tandem? And, you know, it’s a symbiotic thing, right? So, yeah, exactly.
Tash Rebuck 6:00
And that’s yeah, and that’s why I always, when I was in that role, like to make sure that they were working together. Because if something was changing in marketing, or if there was a new offering being proposed in sales, you can’t have one team going, what, what just happened, like everything suddenly changed, and now I need to catch up. And I do think that’s kind of where animosity gets bred as well.
Sam Sayer 6:23
Sure, you know, everyone’s got their targets. They’re all trying to push and, you know, ultimately, for the same goal, right? But, yeah, okay. So tell us about how where do you fit into it, and how do you, how do you work with clients?
Tash Rebuck 6:37
So it really depends what my clients need. So for some business owners, they might be coming to me because they are completely on their own. They might be consultants or coaches, and they really just need a coach themselves, to give them accountability, to give them the steps that they need to take. Most people will say, I have never, and could never, send a cold message to someone, and it feels like this insurmountable, scary thing to do. But when you’ve got someone like a safety net there to say, let’s create it together. Look how we personalise it. We aren’t spamming people. We aren’t being uh, cringy or sort of like snaky sales oil, you know, snake oil sales people, we are just being genuine. We’ve seen someone we can help, and we’re going to reach out to them and let them know we’re here if they need us. Suddenly it becomes like so much more comfortable and a lot less of abattle that they need to do. On the strategy side, I will work with a lot of founders who are really actually looking for, like, big growth. So they might be SaaS, they might be doing, you know, their series, a fundraising or they might have just gotten it. But the reality is, they’re sitting there going, right, I now have to run an entire business. How do Iget new clients? And the reality is, you need a strategy, you need a process, but you also need someone with experience to test and try different things with you. And I think the big learning for those people when they work with me is obviously what, what is going to work to build their business sustainably.
But also, if you as a founder or a business owner, don’t know what good sales is, and you don’t know what works for your business, when you hire that first sales person, and they’re expensive now, like very sometimes I see a salary on LinkedIn, and I’m like, I could go back. I’m like, No, you cannot go back. Don’t do it. Golden Handcuffs, yeah. But I you know, if you don’t know what good sales is, you will be let down, potentially, by your first sales person. I’m trying to teach a new generation of sales people how to do things in the right way, but there’s no way I’m going to change the entire world. You never know. I’ll try. But you know, if your salesperson comes to you and goes, Oh, look, I haven’t got any meetings this week, but it’s just because no one’s really interested, you can go, well, let’s have a look at your messaging. Let’s have a look at your numbers. And you can’t have the wall pulled over your eyes. And then sort of the third silo is sales training. I mean, as I’m sure people watching this will realise, I love to chat and I love to perform. I’m a failed actor, but I’ll never let that go. Yeah, being able to teach teams and get them, you know, brought up to speed. So if they’re recent graduate hires, and they’ve never done sales before, teaching them all the basics, getting them excited, but also going into existing teams and sort of relighting that fire. And that’s often a lot of, uh. Um, going in, seeing what their processes are, building a training completely bespoke to that organisation, because there’s no cookie cutter sales. Everything should be really specialised. And part of that, also, yeah, is working with marketing teams and seeing what’s working for you guys. And can we bring that over to the sales team, especially if they’re struggling.
Sam Sayer 10:21
Sure. Do you know what I’m going to say? You’re a sales coach with anwith an actor within, you know? And I think that’s important, you know,we all have different roles in life. And, you know, as a business owner, you’re wearing many hats, right? And it’s stressful to sort of do all different things. You know, I’ve hired and built things around sales marketing in our team. And I think what you said just a minute ago is really interesting, that it’s about conversations, you know, it’s about messaging and conversations, whether it’s sales or marketing. And that is almost a performative thing, right? So the acting background is, it all makes sense, you know? Think, yeah, let’s, let’s dive into that.
Tash Rebuck 11:02
Absolutely. So I always used to put on my CVS that I am an ex actor, an ex stand up comedian. So I’ve got very thick skin so I can handle rejection. But as I’ve had more time in sales, I’ve realised that there’s quite a few things that are incredibly similar, and kind of skills overlap, one being able to become a different character, because whoever you speak to, you need to be what they need from you. I’ve got some people who love sales. They just need the advice to make them go for it, and in that case, I’m big, I’m loud. I’m my full personality, and I give them, really, some might say, aggressive sales tactics to go for, because they work, whereas some people, they are sonervous, they are so afraid of even doing the smallest sales action. I’ve got to be a chameleon. I have to be quieter, I have to be gentle. I have to hold their hand. So that’s a big part of it.
The second thing is not being afraid to walk into a room and just go and introduce yourself. So having that personality, that kind of outgoing personality, you don’t need to have it in sales, but it does help. And the third thing is no dignity. I’ll do anything. I’ll embarrass myself. I don’t care.
Sam Sayer 12:23
Do you know what? I think that’s a big one for me. We met through the enigma that is Neil Giller, and I remember him saying to me, like, get over yourself. Like, start posting on LinkedIn. Like, who gives a shit? You know, do you want business? I was like, yeah, so. And it’s understanding. I think while we all ultimately are ourselves, we do have to wear we have to, you know, dial up or down different directions. I like that chameleon line as well as, yeah, you do have to adapt. You’re still your yourself, but you have to adapt to different situations. I think as a business owner, I’m very emotionally attached a lot of what we do. So actually having someone external come in and say, let’s look at that bit that needs fixing, that’s great and aren’t together because, you know, you’re not lost in the weeds of it. And, yeah, it’s, I think it’s very empowering, certainly from conversation we’ve had in, you know, getting things right and getting things sorted and just getting on with it.
Tash Rebuck 13:18
Yeah, exactly one of the things I often say to my clients is, what is getting over this level of discomfort worth to you? So I always go, What’s your average contract value? And let’s say they go, Okay, it’s 500 pounds. Okay. You’re afraid to send a LinkedIn message to someone is sending that LinkedIn message worth 500 pounds. Can you get over your discomfort for 500 pounds? Nine times out of 10? They will say, Yeah, I can get over that for 500 pounds. Now, not everyone’s like me. I’ll do pretty much anything 500 pounds. But that sort of like realisation, is such an important moment for people, where they just go, yeah, actually, this, this is worth it, and I can get over it. I also, I love an analogy. I’m full of them, amazing, yeah, often you say amazing, I’ll say often. I think doing sales is a bit like jumping into freezing cold water. You build it up in your mind. You are so scared of doing it. And then once you jump in, there’s a moment where you go, Oh my god. Why did I do this? I’m in hell. And then you regulate your breathing, and you ease yourself into it, and you start going, this is not as bad as I thought it was. And actually, I feel energised. I feel excited. This is really good for me, and I’ve overcome something I’m really scared of, because ultimately, being brave, which I think is like an integral part of sales, it’s not about not being scared to do something. It’s about being absolutely terrified to do something, but going and just doing it anyway.
Sam Sayer 15:06
Yeah, for sure. Do you know what? I can’t find it online anywhere, something I told my son I couldn’t if I heard it or if I made it up myself. Is confidence is bravery times experience, right? You got to make that leap and then keep doing it. And that’s how you build confidence. And this was, again, on a phone, the other bus, a little bit, we had a, had an accountability session of, you know, I need to start doing LinkedIn videos, you know. And that was when, you know, they get over it sort of thing. And I was like, right, i’m going to do two months. And he wrote it down as two a week. I was like, or like, steady on. I’ll do three a week, right? I was like, right, you’re on. And then that competition sort of thing. And I love it. I’ve done loads of them now. I’ve got loads more in the bank to do. So it’s just doing that first one and putting it out there and not getting too hung up over it and getting on with it. And I think that’s a big, big part of it, right?
Tash Rebuck 15:53
Exactly. I mean, ultimately, the worst thing that can happen when you post on LinkedIn is that no one responds to it or reacts to it, and in that case, well, fantastic. You know that? Okay, great. That’s cool than pissing someone off, yeah? But also, when you piss someone off, that gets quite a lot of engagement. Or so I have heard so yeah, I think that it’s, it’s all about, yeah, pushing yourself out of your boundaries, doing something maybe you’re not that comfortable with, but ultimately, no one’s going to grow your business or fight for your business as much asyou will. No one. And so we’ve, we’ve got to do these uncomfortable things for me, yeah, posting videos on LinkedIn, that’s very much a marketing activity, and just posting on LinkedIn in general. I’m definitely not as good at it as I definitely should be. I know what I need to do. I just don’t get around to doing it as I should.
Sam Sayer 16:50
Yeah, familiar story, you know, I think you know, sales is marketing, marketing is sales. Yes, they’re different flavours. You know, there’s different facets to it, but it’s, you know, it has to work together. Amazing, so you said you work with, you work with SaaS. Companies are any sort of particular sectors you work in, or ideal clients,
Tash Rebuck 17:08
Yeah so for me, my background has been quite diverse. I actually used to create bespoke board games for monopoly. So I really, I loved doing that. It was very old school sales. And then I yeah, a lot of SaaS background, but I really fell in love with the world of, like, positive impact and B Corp and sustainability when I was the head of commercial for a volunteering and charity platform, yeah. And so really, now what I try and do is I’ll work with any company that I think Ican add value to. I’ll partner with them as long as it’s B2B. I’m pretty much industry agnostic, okay, but I always try and keep a section of my time free to either do pro bono work with charities or have a lower cost for nonprofits and just general positive impact businesses. That is really what I’m passionate about, and I usually find I resonate really well with those companies, because they’re more hesitant about doing sales right. They’re a bit nervous about getting a bad reputation in such a positive world. And the reality is, is, once they learn that they can do sales in an ethical and empathetic way, suddenly they just can explode and just grow beyond they really ever imagined that they could. And that’s like, super rewarding for me.
Sam Sayer 18:39
Yeah, amazing. Cool. Do you know what? There’s definitely some further conversations to be had here. But Tash, I really appreciate your time. Yeah, let’s plan some more sessions in I think there’s some bits we can dive bit deeper into here. So thank you very good to see you.
Tash Rebuck 18:55
Thank you so much for having me.
Sam Sayer 18:57
Catch you later.
