Overview
In this episode, we are joined again by the brilliant Sophie Davies from Your Marketing Department to discuss the importance of bravery in marketing and branding and the need to take risks and stand out. They discuss Jaguar’s bold move, and the impact of AI on creatives.
Highlights:
6:34- Jaguar’s bold marketing move
11:13- Consistency and branding guidelines
14:18- Luxury branding and historical context
16:36- Customer insights
20:00- AI’s role in branding and marketing
24:34- Emotional connection in branding
Sam Sayer 0:04
Hello. Sophie
Sophie Davies 0:06
Sam, how are you?
Sam Sayer 0:08
Yeah, good. Thank you. Good, good. It is a Friday. We often do this on the Friday, don’t we, so yeah, good time to reflect and then sound off about things I guess that have been going on in our in our marketing and design lives
Sophie Davies 0:21
Exactly.
Sam Sayer 0:24
So we we talked about a few topics, but I think this is one we’re both very keen on, is bravery.
Sophie Davies 0:33
Bravery, yes.
Sam Sayer 0:34
Yeah, doing something different. There are so many times when we’ve done a brand presentation and they start, yeah, we’ll do something really different. You give them the crazy one, they’re like, Oh no, no, no, no, yes. Often in branding, particularly, we do like the way out there, the safe one, and then one that’s kind of in the middle, and it’s very rarely the out there one, which is a real shame. And you know, we do really try and build a lot into why you should pick that one. Yeah, let’s, let’s talk about some some experiences you’ve had with that, and why you think it’s important. Well, I think it’s
Sophie Davies 1:12
interesting because the Jaguar, we were talking about the Jaguar, and I know it’s a long time ago and it’s all disappeared, and it was probably more important in the marketing world than it was anywhere else. But I think that was definitely brave. It
Sam Sayer 1:25
was definitely, well, look, it got everyone talking. You know, Friends, family were messaging me about it. You know, everyone saw it, and it ticked that box of got everyone talking. It definitely,
Sophie Davies 1:38
I had very strong opinions that shouldn’t use that. Lose the Jaguar, but we will see. Time will tell, I think, and I always think about, it’s Audi always did some really brave campaigns, yeah, trying to push away from, you know, what the normal car? I don’t know if you remember the there was a ad that had cogs. I think it had cogs in a marble, yeah, and it was just so refreshing compared to the Let’s drive the car show, the exactly, isn’t it beautiful? Yeah? Some type of person. Oh, it’s a family this time.
Sam Sayer 2:22
Well, they tapped into their audience, right? Yes, you know, it’s a very, you know, it’s a very sort of Mac show ad, wasn’t it really? Well, that wasn’t, wasn’t so macho. The one I’m thinking of was the r8 Well, it was just the resilient engine in a room. And totally, that’s connecting directly with their audience. And then, don’t really care about anything else. Yeah, that one, it’s like, yeah, it’s like, marble running things.
Sophie Davies 2:46
Just really but, you know, the thing is, they’ve got massive budget, so, you know, it’s also, then, what do you do to our SME’s, and I think my sort of greatest. One of my greatest achievements, since I’m going on my own, is pan Farah. So we had to find something different. They’re an accountant. Accountants are so grey and boring, and we really had to find a positioning for them that made them stand out and made all their products make sense.
So we did this whole all the the work we created them, we found we worked out basically they could stand out as a management accountant within a Chartered Accountants world. And the difference is that actually management accountants understand business where the Chartered Accountants understand generally understand numbers. So that’s how we stood out.
And one of the things that she wanted to do was be sustainable. And, you know, the brand, what we do, from a brand point of view, is always like, long term, I don’t the strategy to do. Don’t like to be like one, one year wonders. They need to last a decent five, six years. We might have to tweak the target audience and things, but should be lasting. And she was talking about sustainability. And then it sort of we, we’ve been working with this for quite a while, and I just went, I think we need to rebrand. Now. I’m not big fan of just rebranding for the sake of rebranding because, you know, and definitely don’t lose a name, whatever you do, because that’s what sort of people like. But it was really interesting when we went through the branding process, because, as you say, there was the middle and then there was a extreme, and as I say, they wanted to be sustainable, but client was resisting a bit with quite a lot of work, and I’ve got to bring the team along. How do we do that? And when the when it when we were briefing the client like,
Oh no, no, we don’t need to worry about sustainability. But the agency that we use was like, you really like that sustainability side. And actually, so what we ended up doing was going for the extreme version, which was all about like nature and how does that sustainability kind of come through? Now they’re talking about sustainable business, so that’s not necessarily about your green and all of that, but what it did was kind of bring that to her, to what she was all about, and sort of really give that message of stand up, not being a little bluh which accountants are.
And actually what’s been really interesting is that it’s feeded the sustainability, because we’ve got this really different brand that’s all about sustainability, and then she’s gone, well, I’ve got to prove that now. So it sort of, you know, it’s like, we talk about the big brands, and we go, yeah, that’s a brilliant advert. But how does that work in the SME world? And that certainly for us, was like a standout of, like, how do we create something that’s a bit different, that people go, oh yeah, they’re different. There’s something indifferent in the market. So yeah, that, to me, is kind of a really good example.
Sam Sayer 6:00
I think it we’re talking about being different, you know, if someone says they’re different, they’re not, you’ve got to actually be different. You gotta demonstrate the difference, right? And there’s also different for for different sake, you know, don’t just be different because it’s something to do. It’s gotta be grounded in something tangible that you can back up, right? Which is, you know, exactly we’re saying with it, with a sustainable aspect there. And, of course, you say sustainable immediately, people think of green and CO, two things like that.
And I think, you know, this is what’s really interesting, you know, just going back to the the jaguar one, you know, we don’t know what the brief was, no, so I’ve got a bit of an inkling. I went to the JLR tech fest seven years ago now, and they, they announced then that by 2025, all their cars would be electric. And, you know, they wanted to make some bold moves. They knew it would upset people. They talked about that even then. Yeah, so there’s definitely an angle. And, you know, I have absolutely no shame in saying that.
You know, the Jaguar audience is old white men, oh God. And always has been, right? Always has been. And I think you know, with the E type, it is more, you know, tapping into the cooler market back in the 60s. I think you know, with that particularly it was, it was a sports car. It was more affordable but it’s, it was attainable, and that was interesting. But then, you know, ever since it’s, you know, it’s been the, you know, the the perhaps approaching retirement on a car. In fact, I drove, they brought up the XF, and I thought, a little driver that have a go. It’s like an armchair on wheels. And I went back to the audi garage, and I said, the term’s over. I’m going to get an XF, and they went what, how old are you have a jaguar?
I was like, what? Okay, and I drove, I think, an A5 and I’m sticking with this, like, I’m sold. But yes, just going back to what they what’s talked about there is, you know, what is the brief? Was it to complete your turnips on the head? Yeah, was it to, you know, actually alienate their market? Was it to get everyone talking? Was it all of those things we don’t actually know. Maybe it’ll come out. Hopefully, you know, it probably never come out. But, you know, we, we might find out.
That was the thing. And it certainly, they’ve demonstrated that they want to completely turn on its head, which I think that is, you know, a very, very, very bold, I think, for perhaps the boldest marketing move I’ve ever seen in my lifetime.
Sophie Davies 8:37
I can tell you because one of their senior marketing people approached me about my comments because they were, you know, because I was talking about the fact they’d lost a jaguar, and was this right? And that was before, you know, that was the pre I think they were a little bit shocked by the negativity behind it. Oh, now that’s an interesting I got the impression they were quite like, I mean, I got told to rein it in.
Sam Sayer 9:10
Sorry, you can’t roll that out and not expect massive kickback. You can’t. You just can’t, you know? And I’m kind of like, partly applaud it, yeah, partly like, Oh my god. Well, this is really interesting. And, you know, look, these were concept cars as well, right? So they’ll, I’m sure they’ll release their the actual car, but, oh, right, okay, perhaps it’s not, as, you know,
Sophie Davies 9:33
Completely crazy to be honest, because it was a big noise. And so let’s go for it. And if they are, you know, the pink and the blue. Go for it. And, you know, and just create, create a differentiation. Because, you know, in a world where everything’s all a bit samey, because we all have to comply to rules, yeah, you know, well,
Sam Sayer 9:57
What’s just come to mind, is the 2020, Olympics, you know, when that was on bail, then was like, what have they done? You know? And I was like, Okay, I don’t really get it, but it’s different, certainly, you know, it’s a bold move, cool. And I went down, didn’t actually go to any of the games, but I took my son down. He was eight or nine at the time. We went down to London on the last weekend of the games, just to, like, check it out, you know, it’s a nice sunny day, and seeing all that branding everywhere throughout London, it worked. It looked good. And considering it’s designed so, you know, I think it’s, was it 10 years or so, or good, five years before the actual games it was done, right? And was it, yeah, it’s done a long time before that. And actually, it felt like that. The World caught up with that vision, you know, or had the world pulled along? Because, okay, this is bold. We’re coming towards that so, you know, it’s a risky move, yeah, but it can pay off, right? And, yeah, I think it really worked it, you know, seeing it was what I loved about that, was it was it had good guidelines to it. They weren’t restrictive. You could tell it was all you know. You could see any piece of comms around it, just the, you know, directional signs, you know, around near where the stadiums were. It just worked. And you could just tell it’s part of it. You didn’t need to have the brand, plus all over it, the logo.
Sophie Davies 11:16
Have you seen so I did a post on this, the brand codes and the importance of that, and remembering that and consistency, because test is it? No, it was Heinz. So Heinz have just set out so done a whole heap of outdoor advertising. And can’t remember off the top of my head, but basically it has, doesn’t have the logo on it, yeah? But, you know, it’s high, it’s
Sam Sayer 11:44
An iconic shape, yeah? Or same with Kellogg says on that, og,
Sophie Davies 11:47
Yeah, don’t get
Sam Sayer 11:50
I get it, you know, yeah, I saw, in fact, I saw it on a bus stop. Uh, just yesterday, actually, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. You recognize that script to buy off,
Sophie Davies 12:01
And I think that’s the thing when you come to branding, is, you know, whatever your business, because a lot of people going well, you know, I mean, I’m only small, like, but it’s all about that consistency marketing, so much about that consistency. And, yeah, you know, that’s why we work really well with, you know, clients, is that we’re just there to provide consistency. Consistency can also be really dull.
Sam Sayer 12:26
Well, this is it, yeah, we’ve worked on some things. You know, I was a freelancer on a number of agencies way back when, and we get, you know, someone in the account management team, client account team, Oh, it didn’t say this in the guidelines, like, no, but there’s enough brand elements on there. You know, we use a different font for a headline, for something that worked right in the creative all that fonts, not in the guidelines, no, but the guidelines don’t say you could only use these fonts, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got to push them. They’re, they’re guides, not scriptures, just for the main So, and that was, yeah, I remember battling with, little luck, but it works, right? Yeah, it’s still the brand, you know, so
Sophie Davies 13:05
the designer versus the account, yeah,
Sam Sayer 13:08
Oh, many, many battles, but you’ve got to challenge these things
Sophie Davies 13:14
Yeah, and I think that’s really important, you know, because we did work with Sam glass recently, and actually they’ve been going 50 odd years, so we can’t, couldn’t change it. All we did was tidy everything up and change the colors. But we didn’t change the colors because they were yellow and green, and we kept they stayed yellow and green. But you could modernize without very much modern and it’s amazing what it’s done for everyone internally as well, because, you know, it’s given everyone a lift of going, Yeah, you know what? We’re not so this is a company that was a it’s a family company. So Mum Dad grew it, and then son and daughter in law have taken over. And actually, what it’s done is given them just a refreshing it’s like, this is our business, not mum and dad’s business,
Sam Sayer 14:06
For sure. Yeah, yeah, modernising, updating, absolutely. You know, of course, the goal is to have something so timeless, you know, works in any format, and then no reason it can’t. Yeah, a lot of the fashion brand, for the last few years have really gone, you know, they’ve gone some quite elegant typeface to just San Sayer for that, really, yeah, I know. Do you know
Sophie Davies 14:30
The luxury is an interesting one, actually, because we work with the luxury Windows company, um, they want to be, you know, or in Mayfair and things like that. And it is interesting that move, not sure. It’s great, because we were looking at the, we were looking at the logos and just trying, because there’s so much history behind it, and I think, you know, we’ve got Philippe for tech, and we were looking at that. And it’s like the, the. History behind the watchmaking and why there’s the logo is the way it is. And it was very difficult to work with this client, I have to admit, because it was a logo. Is not just a logo. It’s got so much more to it, and it’s got that history, and it’s got, you know, particularly within the luxury market, you have to be really careful within the luxury market, because that’s what people want. It’s that exclusivity. It’s that, yeah, yeah. So it was quite interesting that so slightly off topic, but
Sam Sayer 15:34
I think you look at the brands who are different, like Balenciaga, now I really, I don’t think I’ll ever get that, but Well, it worked for them, right? These, these in, in the same creations they do, you know, to people bikes. It’s completely bat
Sophie Davies 15:51
Shit. But the thing
Sam Sayer 15:54
Look at McQueen in westwards. You know, it’s statement stuff, right? And it’s kind of, yeah. Do you know what? I’m not following the herd. I’m doing something different.
Sophie Davies 16:04
Um, yeah. It’s understanding that audience again. So it’s again, coming back to that audience of like, actually, that’s what they want. They want something that’s exclusive. You’re not going to go and buy some address that’s 5000 pounds just for your everyday wear, and that’s wanting to make a statement.
Sam Sayer 16:22
Yeah, that looks like an Ikea bag, like, but, you know? But this good point, right? Is, well, what? What is the why? Right? Yeah, it’s why you doing something different, and also what you solving for someone, you know? What? What pain of these people have that wants to be sold by what you’re offering? And, you know, is it that they think they’re different or want to be different, and therefore they connect with it, or actually, they’re tired of all this and they want to do this now, you know? So it’s, you know, it’s got to have that underlying need behind it as well,
Sophie Davies 16:57
right? It does, which is why, interestingly, I do customer interviews so but only with the people who really love the brand, because I get quite a lot of pushback on those for exactly that reason, because as you build the strategy, it means that I know exactly what their existing customers love. Now, people say, Oh, we want a different customer. But reality is, have you saturated your market? Most of us haven’t, particularly within the SME, within the SME arena. So yeah, it’s quite an interesting one. Which means that when we do a brief to people like yourselves, then that brief just really get the customer. So do that like, but it would be good if we could do have more brave stuff. I have to say, a bit vanilla nowadays
Sam Sayer 17:52
it is. Yeah, we found a few in the last year, like, Do you know what we like? What you do? Go for it. Yes, that’s what we’re going to do. And you’ve got to rationalize it, right? You can’t just, you know, you’ve got to run down the journey. And, you know, we still both discovery process. You know, you’ve got to do the deep dive. You’ve got to do the understanding of of the client, their audience, what they think their audience wants, versus what the audience actually want.
Sophie Davies 18:16
Yes, yeah
Sam Sayer 18:20
And you know, you’ve got to do that work before you do any of the planning, you know, any sort of brand new ones like that. You know, it’s the understanding, really,
Sophie Davies 18:29
And then you can be brave. Oh, that’s cool. You’re getting some brave stuff. That’s nice as all creativity go on. But actually it hasn’t so being slight. And actually, what’s interesting at the moment, I think, with marketing, is it’s having to work a lot harder. And because I don’t think in the kind of early 2000s everyone got bit lazy, you know, you know, there’s quite this big crazy, because it was all different. Yeah, and now, actually, creatives are working a lot harder because, apart from, they ask you’re you’ve got to show well, I don’t know. I mean, how’s the AI impacting you?
Sam Sayer 19:13
You know, I think every creative in the last couple years have thought, Oh, my God, you know, are we done? No, far from it, far from it. But, you know, first off, certainly from what I’ve seen, because I’ve, I’ve, I use it, you know, I use it for playing around with stuff, getting initially, you know, yeah, it’s, it’s only learning what it’s been fed to only go and watch what’s out there, right? And guess what’s mostly out there pretty crap stuff. Yeah, right. So unless you tell it, right, I love this brand, and doing that, you know, it’s going to give you something very vanilla. And I’ve definitely seen cases where it’s cannibalised itself, you know. And the thing in the next few years, it’s learning off AI generation stuff. So. If anything,
Sophie Davies 20:00
That’s really good for people like you guys, because that just can put means that everything gets pillaged and everyone’s going up another level, really exciting. Well,
Sam Sayer 20:09
Guess what? You know when I remember when word art came out, right? I could do my own logo, I could do my own signage, and, yeah, it looks absolutely terrible. You know, there’s a clear difference. And look, do you know, what if, if you’re starting out, you know, create something. Go for it. You know, do it. And a lot of what we do, certainly in the website world, it’s either people got an established site that’s old and needs refreshing, or they’ve done a have a go in wicks or SquareSpace. Yeah, I spent days on this aren’t done properly, you know, yeah, so great, you know, I think what AI is doing, it’s, you know, we certainly speed up processes. But also it means great business can, can start quicker and leaner, yeah, I’m not seeing and then when they’re ready, we could help you, you know, I think, you know, it’s, it’s just reframing, reframing that right?
Sophie Davies 21:02
Yeah, you’re right, actually. Because, you know, I don’t really work with people in to about, sort of three, four years in, which is about when you, you guys come in as well. Because, well, apart from the budget area and, you know, being have the money, but also, I always think it’s, it’s the establishedness, and you know what you want, and therefore you can create that brand. I mean, I didn’t get so, I mean, I was exactly that person. I did my logo through Canva, you know, and I didn’t have that logo for years. And then, well, in fact, four years, I think, I had a rebrand, I wasn’t, and then I’ve had the most recent rebrand, and that’s the one that will go forward. Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s not until you’ve got a certain amount of budget that you can go right, actually. And it’s something that I always think startups actually just go out. I used to say, just build a Facebook page at least you’re out there.
Sam Sayer 21:56
Yeah. And, you know, when I started out in my sort of late teens. I’d do, I’d do a logo for free because I wanted to get my foot in the door and offer pennies to, you know, get a name there’s that’s no different with AI stuff, right? And, you know, they talk about sort of AI web design. Well, you’ve always been able to buy themes off Theme Forest and things like that. That’s there’s always been there. If anything, it might kill that market. But, you know, it’s, again, it’s rationalizing what you do experience and understanding, you know, that’s the difference, and you’ve got to be ready for that. You know, not many business unless they’re, they’re a startup from an, you know, as an offshoot of an established company. Yeah, it’s very rare that you’ll have the budget and, you know, and the need to launch at that level,
Sophie Davies 22:42
Yeah. I think that is where AI is useful. But I do think it’s an interesting one AI. So I always can take it with jobs, and it’s kind of like, but you’ve all been trained, and there’s a difference even canva. Because, I mean, like, I’ll put something somewhere, and I can see a designer go
Sam Sayer 23:01
A slight tangent here. I had a bit of a rant on LinkedIn the other day about seeing the all these posts on LinkedIn now that have a title, all in title case, and then American spelling, oh, like, come on, at least try and make it look like you’ve done it anyway. That’s something for another chat. I think, yeah. And look, you know, look, I think it’s great that people are it’s enabling people. I think that’s one of the best things in it. In my spare time, not little I have, I’ve done double music production. I was DJing for years and years in the 90s, you have to have 10 grand for a studio, right or, or hire a studio for a day right now, you can get software pretty cheap, or people, I suppose, crack the software, but it’s enabled people to do it, and I think that’s fantastic. And I’ve seen some brilliant DIY brands as well. I really have. I think if you’ve got the passion and the creative streak, you can really do some cool stuff, and often it’s quite different. And I think especially with the with the music I was into, it is made by people who aren’t classically trained, who aren’t musicians, necessarily, and they’ve created the most amazing music, which may not technically be right on a musical level, but it’s, it’s great. And I think, you know, I do like that di nature. I think AI is going to help a lot of that. You know, yeah,
Sophie Davies 24:20
He’s got, yeah, and be interesting to see how creativity continues to grow and more brands a bit different, even if it creates the negativity. Yeah,
Sam Sayer 24:33
Look, I always think you know a brand needs to create like needs to evoke an emotion, yes, for the right reasons.
Sophie Davies 24:41
Yeah, for the right reasons. I agree. But then, you know, we don’t know the target audience. As you said always, you know, understand the brief, the understanding, definitely.
Sam Sayer 24:52
I just thought another one that I’m a big Marmite fan anyway. But you know, Marmite actually nail it, love it or hate it. They could, they totally, they’ve understood themselves, and, you know, the audience they really have. Because I don’t know if you’re a Marmite fan or not, but the mark fan, we stick together, you know. And there’s that one advert which I think they tried to ban it at one point where, if the mom might rehome me. Remember that? Well, God, no, I haven’t seen that one. Wow. Okay, we’ll put that in the comments. So I won’t, I won’t give any more away. It’s absolutely genius. And every so often someone will send me, send me all of it in this it is genius. And it’s like, oh my god, what I’m doing. And then you get it, that’s great. It’s great. But again, you know that is actually being different and really understanding your market.
Sophie Davies 25:43
For the right reasons, you know, Insight all comes down to customer insights.
Sam Sayer 25:48
Yeah, love it amazing. Well, I think we can definitely spinout some more topics from this, definitely. But yeah, I think, yeah. I think Be bold, be brave, as Doctor Pepper says, What’s the worst that can happen.
Sophie Davies 26:01
Yeah, what is the worst? Definitely be brave. Lovely to talk to you!
Sam Sayer 26:08
Bye!
